"Despite all the talk about talk, the discouraging news is that it is not prevalent. One review of the research on discussion reported that its use in middle and high school classrooms varied from 14 seconds to 68 seconds per class period." (Fisher et. al. 73). We need to let go of the idea that the teacher needs to do all the talking and the students do all the listening. I think once we, as teachers, get better at designing discussion in our classrooms the engagement will increase and we will ask ourselves why we didn't do more of this earlier.
This week I focused on discussions in my classroom. The biggest thing that I noticed was the difference in discussions between the 3 sections that I teach. My first section could not hold a 30 second group discussion without getting off task. My second section never got off task, but they would say a few words each and then sit silent. My third section would only have a couple of participants while others sat back. I did consciously have discussions each day for each section. I wanted to get at least a 5 minute conversation that involved partner, then group, then class, but this inevitably ended up shorter than I wanted, and I had to probe and prompt the conversations. The obstacles that I see are distractions. Students want to be writing or typing what is being said instead of participating. (You'll see this on my video). I also see students waiting for me to take over the discussions because they "Just want an answer". When I did this loyally for the week I realized just how much I need to "Teach" or model conversations. Socratic Seminar would be a great thing to teach. I believe that if they are taught to have a proper discussion, things will greatly improve.
How much time did you allot for student discussion during the week? What are the roadblocks/concerns that may prevent student discussion? How can you increase time allowed for student discussion in your classroom?
I think that some background information about my current unit would be helpful. We are reading "The Kite Runner" by Kahled Hosseini right now so our day is pretty well split into discussion and reading time. This week my discussion times were Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday 2nd ~5 min 2nd 8 min 2nd 28 min 2nd 8 min 2nd 15 min 3rd ~5min 3rd 10 min 3rd 10 min 3rd 8 min 3rd 6 min 6th ~5min 6th 10 min 6th 25 min 6th 8 min 6th ? 8th ~5 min 8th 15 min 8th 25 min 8th 8 min 8th ?
I had several roadblocks in class discussion this week. First, 3rd period is a small class, like four students small, all of their discussions are usually pretty quick. On Thursday we had 56 students out of school for a visit to ICCC. Monday's reading was kind of 'boring' and didn't really give us much to discuss or hypothesize about. I also felt like on Monday and Tuesday I didn't do much to facilitate conversation without me in it. On Wednesday I made a point to ask questions that allowed students to talk to each other, not just me. I have been meaning to work on removing myself from the conversation and allowing students to just talk without asking me questions for clarification from the chapter. I think that it does have value for me to just answer some clarifying questions like, "Where are the characters at in this moment" "About how big is Kabul" "How old are the characters at this point" "Why does the Taliban..." But, overall I need to start asking the class to answer for their classmates or research to find these answers. Wednesday I tried doing this and it was enlightening. They really *don't* need me to spell out everything for them. They can really do so much on their own and foster lively conversation without me doing very much at all. I just need to release the control.
I would say that I don't feel like I need to *increase* the time in my classroom for discussion, I need to *enrich* it. What I mean is that I need to back off from wanting to be a member of the group and the conversation to an observer who occasionally asks deepening questions or promotes peer to peer conversations. The first step might be setting some guidelines so that students don't raise their hand and look at me but rather look at their peers. I also need to work on conversation etiquette because we have a hard time not speaking over one another (is this kindergarten!? haha!).
It just so happened that I read these chapters before class Monday this week, so I was able to focus on discussion every day this week. My students had around 75 minutes of discussion in my English 1 (9th grade) classroom. They probably would have had more if I wasn’t explaining a new task/assignment one day and if nearly half of my students weren’t gone for a class trip another, but these are part of the roadblocks that come in to play. Depending on the day, I also struggle with keeping some students on task during their discussion time, which I’m sure many teachers face. I’ve always thought about having a group model what a successful and worthwhile discussion looks like, but I don’t know if that’s too “cheesy” for high school students. Another roadblock in my classroom is that I have quite a few students who prefer to work and think alone. They don’t like working/associating with others, and I don’t want to force them to do so. I learned from one of the videos that students become more comfortable with discussions the more we have them, and I noticed this in my last unit with Romeo and Juliet. We had Socratic Seminars once a week, and I was amazed by the increase in participation by the end. Therefore, I will just continue to implement a range of class discussion during class time when appropriate and possible.
I don't think that a group model would be cheesy for your classes. I think that most teachers know how they want the class to go (discussion, small groups/stations, etc.). All too often, I forget to share what's in my head with my students.
Like most teachers have stated, it varies from class to class. Depending on the make up of the class depends on how much they share out. Roughly for the week, there was about 55 minutes for talk/discussion. This ranged anywhere from a pair/share about a question, idea, or phenomena I asked them to discuss to a free discussion about current events they have heard, read or watched. The roadblocks are many kids are distracted by their peers or computers. The 5th grade in general are poor listeners. They seem to not care what their classmates are saying. When we discuss, we tend to get a lot of repeative comments versus adding to the discussion/conversation from the comments already made. This tells me I need to work with students on etiquette for respectfully listening to others. I also liked from the earlier chapter about creating a checklist for listening/sharing with their peers. I definitely think this will be something I consider for next year.
I think I use deliberate and direct teaching without even thinking about it most of the time. However, after reading this chapter it reminded me of the big things that need to be done in order to impact students the way we want. If we want students to dig deep and put them into query positions direct teaching if done correctly can move us in that direction. Personally, focus questions help me get my head wrapped around what I need to do with the students. With these I can help provide the modeling, scaffolding and practice that will put students in positions of deeper thinking. The chapter did remind me of the importance of making sure the students understand the why of what we are doing. What makes it important in their life? The aha moment came as the chapter used the Youtube example to to prove it's better when you have a reason to learn something.
I decided to track the discussion time in my Personal Finance class over one week. On Day 1 a new unit was being introduced so after talking to the students about the unit, the standards and the I can statements students participated in a Kahoot about financing college. The students had some brief discussions in their groups when coming up with the answers to the Kahoot game. After the game the students completed a paired vocabulary activity and during this the students had some great discussion about why it was important that they know the vocabulary word they were working with. Day 2 the first half of the period was teacher talk and a video about the cost of college and student debt; second half of class was an article activity that was individual, so not much discussion by students. Day 3 students finished watching the video and had to prepare answers to question prompts I had given them. Day 4 was mostly student discussion with me prompting them to move on to the next question when needed. This topic is one that students are very interested in because soon they will be off to college and incurring student debt. Do to the nature of the topic is easy to get the students to discuss. Day 5 was an Everfi Module over student debt that was individual. The roadblocks/concerns that were faced this week had to do with the nature of the lesson. On day one I had to take time to introduce the new material, day 2 time was used to watch the video so that discussion could happen, day 3 more video watching and preparing their answers and day 5 all individual work. So I guess when there is to be discussion in the lesson which day 4 was heavy on then most of the class period is spent on student discussion but to say that every day half the period is spent on student discussion, no I can not say that. I can increase time for student discussion by building more time in to the lesson for discussions. I can be more deliberate with my lessons and incorporate time for the students to discuss the topic. One roadblock here is time. Personal Finance has a lot packed into one semester already and to add more time for student discussion will take some creativity but I do see the importance in them discussing the topics to foster a deeper understanding for all.
When introducing a new topic or unit it is natural for there to be time for teacher talk. I think the struggle we as teachers face is that students can learn from one another through discussion. Not all the knowledge has to come from us, the teacher. Keep finding ways to get those kids engaging with one another and using discussion in your lessons.
I recorded group discussion this week (minus one snow day). A few things of note: discussion was planned for Monday, however only 3 of 21 students had completed the reading that would have allowed for discussion. Needless to say I was discouraged. On Tuesday I was able to have two sections discuss an open ended question. The kids were in small groups and discussed for about 10 minutes. I attempted to stand back. I circulated the tables and prompted discussions as needed. When we met back to discuss large group I tried to use phrases like "Explain your thinking" and "Tell me more". I was also able to have all three sections work in groups of 3 on Thursday to discuss the reading. One thing I noticed was that my class that pulls mostly A's and B's are the ones that struggle with discussion. It would seem that they are fearful of making a mistake and since our discussion topic was open, they struggled with not being able to come up with the correct answer.
Student discussion in my classroom is very interesting. Much of the discussion does surround facts or recall, prior knowledge or making connections, and asking specific questions they want to know more about. The teacher guides much of the discussion at this point and even then the students struggle to stay on the topic and have meaningful discussions! I always try to ask my students to explain their ideas or opinions by asking why questions and encourage other students to ask meaningful questions also. I actually have noticed through our morning meeting process that the students are beginning to ask relevant questions of each other!
This year has been quite an adjustment for me. Especially going from 6th grade to the elementary and trying to have discussions with PK -4 grade. I have found that I can engage the younger students easier in a conversation, but it ends in story telling vs questioning and discussion. When I only have the students for 30 minutes a week and I have lots to get done with them, I find it is even more difficult to have student led discussions vs just having me control the discussion.
In the past week, I spent approximately 2 full class periods plus another 10 minutes with student discussion. Most of this discussion came in the form of end of the assignment critiques. Students are asked to Describe, Analyze, Interpret & Judge peer work. The ends of the assignment critiques take a full class period. The additional 10 minutes came from a “midway critique”. My Drawing1 class has implemented a midway critique. Instead of the formal 4 step process, we use more of an informal discussion setting. Questions students are answering include: “What struggles am I currently having with this work of art?” “Has another student successfully solved the problems I am having?” (If so, students are encouraged to ask other students how they overcame the problem. For instance, mixing a paint color for skin tone can be very frustrating. I have several art students that are excellent at it. Those are the students I encourage to help others.) “What suggestion can I give another artist to help improve their artwork?” “What questions do I have for other artists, either about their artwork or my own?” We tried this midway critique several months ago. This group has excelled as a result. Quality of artwork has improved as a result. I have used “Daily Questions” for attendance. Students choose to participate or pass. As the semester progresses, the majority of students participate. The Daily Questions and structured critiques have helped reluctant students to feel more comfortable and confident in their discussions. An aha for me came from Video #13. “Become comfortable with silence.” I still struggle with this one. I have improved over the years, but this is a good reminder. I think I get so passionate about the topic it is hard for me to take a breath and let the students think for a bit before jumping in with another question or suggestion.
I kept track of discussion minutes during my two third grade guided reading classes. Certainly something both students and I will need to work on. I felt like I had to keep pulling and probing for more discussion. Even when they were partner talking it was very limited discussion going back and forth - small group discussion was also disappointing. Makes me realize that we (I) have taken all the talking out of students as they wait for us to tell them what we want them to say. Guided reading was the class I monitored time but it made me aware of what I allow for discussion with my intervention students. I certainly need to change my thinking and teaching even at the fundamental step of learning.
With my courseload this semester, I find it difficult to discuss about reading. However, I gave it a shot. Most of my students hadn't read the material, so I gave them time to read a short passage. I know that I am an impatient person. I tend to hurry things along if I feel that they aren't moving fast enough. I need to slow down, and realize that the brain of a 9th grader doesn't process like mine does. I will, however, be more deliberate in reading, digesting, and discussing information.
"Despite all the talk about talk, the discouraging news is that it is not prevalent. One review of the research on discussion reported that its use in middle and high school classrooms varied from 14 seconds to 68 seconds per class period." (Fisher et. al. 73).
ReplyDeleteWe need to let go of the idea that the teacher needs to do all the talking and the students do all the listening. I think once we, as teachers, get better at designing discussion in our classrooms the engagement will increase and we will ask ourselves why we didn't do more of this earlier.
This week I focused on discussions in my classroom. The biggest thing that I noticed was the difference in discussions between the 3 sections that I teach. My first section could not hold a 30 second group discussion without getting off task. My second section never got off task, but they would say a few words each and then sit silent. My third section would only have a couple of participants while others sat back. I did consciously have discussions each day for each section. I wanted to get at least a 5 minute conversation that involved partner, then group, then class, but this inevitably ended up shorter than I wanted, and I had to probe and prompt the conversations. The obstacles that I see are distractions. Students want to be writing or typing what is being said instead of participating. (You'll see this on my video). I also see students waiting for me to take over the discussions because they "Just want an answer". When I did this loyally for the week I realized just how much I need to "Teach" or model conversations. Socratic Seminar would be a great thing to teach. I believe that if they are taught to have a proper discussion, things will greatly improve.
ReplyDeleteWould it help if students had some question prompts to use to keep the discussion moving forward? Have you ever used Socratic Seminar?
DeleteHow much time did you allot for student discussion during
ReplyDeletethe week? What are the roadblocks/concerns that may prevent student discussion? How
can you increase time allowed for student discussion in your classroom?
I think that some background information about my current unit would be helpful.
We are reading "The Kite Runner" by Kahled Hosseini right now so our day is pretty well split into discussion and reading time. This week my discussion times were
Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday
2nd ~5 min 2nd 8 min 2nd 28 min 2nd 8 min 2nd 15 min
3rd ~5min 3rd 10 min 3rd 10 min 3rd 8 min 3rd 6 min
6th ~5min 6th 10 min 6th 25 min 6th 8 min 6th ?
8th ~5 min 8th 15 min 8th 25 min 8th 8 min 8th ?
I had several roadblocks in class discussion this week. First, 3rd period is a small class, like four students small, all of their discussions are usually pretty quick. On Thursday we had 56 students out of school for a visit to ICCC. Monday's reading was kind of 'boring' and didn't really give us much to discuss or hypothesize about. I also felt like on Monday and Tuesday I didn't do much to facilitate conversation without me in it. On Wednesday I made a point to ask questions that allowed students to talk to each other, not just me. I have been meaning to work on removing myself from the conversation and allowing students to just talk without asking me questions for clarification from the chapter. I think that it does have value for me to just answer some clarifying questions like, "Where are the characters at in this moment" "About how big is Kabul" "How old are the characters at this point" "Why does the Taliban..." But, overall I need to start asking the class to answer for their classmates or research to find these answers. Wednesday I tried doing this and it was enlightening. They really *don't* need me to spell out everything for them. They can really do so much on their own and foster lively conversation without me doing very much at all. I just need to release the control.
I would say that I don't feel like I need to *increase* the time in my classroom for discussion, I need to *enrich* it. What I mean is that I need to back off from wanting to be a member of the group and the conversation to an observer who occasionally asks deepening questions or promotes peer to peer conversations.
The first step might be setting some guidelines so that students don't raise their hand and look at me but rather look at their peers. I also need to work on conversation etiquette because we have a hard time not speaking over one another (is this kindergarten!? haha!).
It just so happened that I read these chapters before class Monday this week, so I was able to focus on discussion every day this week. My students had around 75 minutes of discussion in my English 1 (9th grade) classroom. They probably would have had more if I wasn’t explaining a new task/assignment one day and if nearly half of my students weren’t gone for a class trip another, but these are part of the roadblocks that come in to play. Depending on the day, I also struggle with keeping some students on task during their discussion time, which I’m sure many teachers face. I’ve always thought about having a group model what a successful and worthwhile discussion looks like, but I don’t know if that’s too “cheesy” for high school students. Another roadblock in my classroom is that I have quite a few students who prefer to work and think alone. They don’t like working/associating with others, and I don’t want to force them to do so. I learned from one of the videos that students become more comfortable with discussions the more we have them, and I noticed this in my last unit with Romeo and Juliet. We had Socratic Seminars once a week, and I was amazed by the increase in participation by the end. Therefore, I will just continue to implement a range of class discussion during class time when appropriate and possible.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that a group model would be cheesy for your classes. I think that most teachers know how they want the class to go (discussion, small groups/stations, etc.). All too often, I forget to share what's in my head with my students.
DeleteLike most teachers have stated, it varies from class to class. Depending on the make up of the class depends on how much they share out. Roughly for the week, there was about 55 minutes for talk/discussion. This ranged anywhere from a pair/share about a question, idea, or phenomena I asked them to discuss to a free discussion about current events they have heard, read or watched.
ReplyDeleteThe roadblocks are many kids are distracted by their peers or computers. The 5th grade in general are poor listeners. They seem to not care what their classmates are saying. When we discuss, we tend to get a lot of repeative comments versus adding to the discussion/conversation from the comments already made.
This tells me I need to work with students on etiquette for respectfully listening to others. I also liked from the earlier chapter about creating a checklist for listening/sharing with their peers. I definitely think this will be something I consider for next year.
I think I use deliberate and direct teaching without even thinking about it most of the time. However, after reading this chapter it reminded me of the big things that need to be done in order to impact students the way we want. If we want students to dig deep and put them into query positions direct teaching if done correctly can move us in that direction. Personally, focus questions help me get my head wrapped around what I need to do with the students. With these I can help provide the modeling, scaffolding and practice that will put students in positions of deeper thinking. The chapter did remind me of the importance of making sure the students understand the why of what we are doing. What makes it important in their life?
ReplyDeleteThe aha moment came as the chapter used the Youtube example to to prove it's better when you have a reason to learn something.
I decided to track the discussion time in my Personal Finance class over one week. On Day 1 a new unit was being introduced so after talking to the students about the unit, the standards and the I can statements students participated in a Kahoot about financing college. The students had some brief discussions in their groups when coming up with the answers to the Kahoot game. After the game the students completed a paired vocabulary activity and during this the students had some great discussion about why it was important that they know the vocabulary word they were working with. Day 2 the first half of the period was teacher talk and a video about the cost of college and student debt; second half of class was an article activity that was individual, so not much discussion by students. Day 3 students finished watching the video and had to prepare answers to question prompts I had given them. Day 4 was mostly student discussion with me prompting them to move on to the next question when needed. This topic is one that students are very interested in because soon they will be off to college and incurring student debt. Do to the nature of the topic is easy to get the students to discuss. Day 5 was an Everfi Module over student debt that was individual.
ReplyDeleteThe roadblocks/concerns that were faced this week had to do with the nature of the lesson. On day one I had to take time to introduce the new material, day 2 time was used to watch the video so that discussion could happen, day 3 more video watching and preparing their answers and day 5 all individual work. So I guess when there is to be discussion in the lesson which day 4 was heavy on then most of the class period is spent on student discussion but to say that every day half the period is spent on student discussion, no I can not say that.
I can increase time for student discussion by building more time in to the lesson for discussions. I can be more deliberate with my lessons and incorporate time for the students to discuss the topic. One roadblock here is time. Personal Finance has a lot packed into one semester already and to add more time for student discussion will take some creativity but I do see the importance in them discussing the topics to foster a deeper understanding for all.
When introducing a new topic or unit it is natural for there to be time for teacher talk. I think the struggle we as teachers face is that students can learn from one another through discussion. Not all the knowledge has to come from us, the teacher. Keep finding ways to get those kids engaging with one another and using discussion in your lessons.
DeleteI recorded group discussion this week (minus one snow day). A few things of note: discussion was planned for Monday, however only 3 of 21 students had completed the reading that would have allowed for discussion. Needless to say I was discouraged. On Tuesday I was able to have two sections discuss an open ended question. The kids were in small groups and discussed for about 10 minutes. I attempted to stand back. I circulated the tables and prompted discussions as needed. When we met back to discuss large group I tried to use phrases like "Explain your thinking" and "Tell me more". I was also able to have all three sections work in groups of 3 on Thursday to discuss the reading. One thing I noticed was that my class that pulls mostly A's and B's are the ones that struggle with discussion. It would seem that they are fearful of making a mistake and since our discussion topic was open, they struggled with not being able to come up with the correct answer.
ReplyDeleteDo you have any plans on how you can get those A/B students to be less fearful?
DeleteStudent discussion in my classroom is very interesting. Much of the discussion does surround facts or recall, prior knowledge or making connections, and asking specific questions they want to know more about. The teacher guides much of the discussion at this point and even then the students struggle to stay on the topic and have meaningful discussions! I always try to ask my students to explain their ideas or opinions by asking why questions and encourage other students to ask meaningful questions also. I actually have noticed through our morning meeting process that the students are beginning to ask relevant questions of each other!
ReplyDeleteThis year has been quite an adjustment for me. Especially going from 6th grade to the elementary and trying to have discussions with PK -4 grade. I have found that I can engage the younger students easier in a conversation, but it ends in story telling vs questioning and discussion. When I only have the students for 30 minutes a week and I have lots to get done with them, I find it is even more difficult to have student led discussions vs just having me control the discussion.
ReplyDeleteIn the past week, I spent approximately 2 full class periods plus another 10 minutes with student discussion. Most of this discussion came in the form of end of the assignment critiques. Students are asked to Describe, Analyze, Interpret & Judge peer work. The ends of the assignment critiques take a full class period.
ReplyDeleteThe additional 10 minutes came from a “midway critique”. My Drawing1 class has implemented a midway critique. Instead of the formal 4 step process, we use more of an informal discussion setting. Questions students are answering include: “What struggles am I currently having with this work of art?” “Has another student successfully solved the problems I am having?” (If so, students are encouraged to ask other students how they overcame the problem. For instance, mixing a paint color for skin tone can be very frustrating. I have several art students that are excellent at it. Those are the students I encourage to help others.) “What suggestion can I give another artist to help improve their artwork?” “What questions do I have for other artists, either about their artwork or my own?” We tried this midway critique several months ago. This group has excelled as a result. Quality of artwork has improved as a result.
I have used “Daily Questions” for attendance. Students choose to participate or pass. As the semester progresses, the majority of students participate. The Daily Questions and structured critiques have helped reluctant students to feel more comfortable and confident in their discussions.
An aha for me came from Video #13. “Become comfortable with silence.” I still struggle with this one. I have improved over the years, but this is a good reminder. I think I get so passionate about the topic it is hard for me to take a breath and let the students think for a bit before jumping in with another question or suggestion.
I kept track of discussion minutes during my two third grade guided reading classes. Certainly something both students and I will need to work on. I felt like I had to keep pulling and probing for more discussion. Even when they were partner talking it was very limited discussion going back and forth - small group discussion was also disappointing. Makes me realize that we (I) have taken all the talking out of students as they wait for us to tell them what we want them to say. Guided reading was the class I monitored time but it made me aware of what I allow for discussion with my intervention students. I certainly need to change my thinking and teaching even at the fundamental step of learning.
ReplyDeleteWith my courseload this semester, I find it difficult to discuss about reading. However, I gave it a shot. Most of my students hadn't read the material, so I gave them time to read a short passage. I know that I am an impatient person. I tend to hurry things along if I feel that they aren't moving fast enough. I need to slow down, and realize that the brain of a 9th grader doesn't process like mine does. I will, however, be more deliberate in reading, digesting, and discussing information.
ReplyDelete